Coaster Punchman, you've given me a lot of excellent information in comments below so I wanted to consolidate it here;
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Coaster Punchman has left a new comment on your post "Finally, A Pic I Can Live With":
Hi again Alan,
Wow, I've been reading through these comments and this is quite a discussion. I'll have to check out your blog more to see if there is more mention of this college you attended, because what you wrote about them here just blows my mind. No interracial dating? As a policy? I don't know what kind of school this was (i.e. sounds like Bob Jones University) but I would stay far, far away from a place like that.
Frankly if this college (or any other kind of institution) receives any kind of public funding I think they could get in trouble for violating various civil rights laws. That is just insane.
I'm sorry you had to endure that.
Being a member of my own minority group I am familiar with the sting of institutionalized bigotry, and it never stops hurting.
The world is so f-ed up that I don't blame you for being angry. When I stop to think about all the blatant but needless injustice in the world I feel pretty damn angry myself.
Posted by Coaster Punchman to This Redeemable Life at September 13, 2007 2:01 PM
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Coaster Punchman has left a new comment on your post "My Life As A Homo":
So I'm checking out your archives a bit and this is interesting. It sounds like maybe you haven't had a lot of gay friends. Maybe you should get some, because the more time you spend with them you'll find there's really nothing new or different about the universe they share with you.
Although I'm still very much aware of the struggles we face as gay people, my life to me and everyone I know is very normal. Every now and again I'll encounter someone who has all these questions along the lines of "my God, what is it LIKE?" and I don't know what to say. Sure, I can talk about the pain I suffered as an adolescent and young adult and yada yada yada (and there was plenty of it) but I don't want to think about that stuff 24/7. I live life day to day just like anyone else, and while I feel angry at certain huge injustices, I still go about my life with my friends and loved ones around and I never ever feel like I'm any less normal than anyone else.
Truth be told, unless people have a totally ignorant upbringing or serious psychological issues about sex, most of them don't seem to care what you want to do with your naughty bits because it's a) none of their business and b) generally not very relevant to anything going on around them.
If someone wants to feel I'm a freak, it's totally their problem and I honestly don't care. Really. Of course, I am a freak in many more important ways than whom I choose to have as romantic partners, but we won't go into that.
I have plenty of straight guy friends. If they ever felt any weirdness around me, I'm really not aware of it, nor do I care unless it's something they want to discuss with me at some point. I don't consider myself or feel myself to be any different from them in my daily struggles and joys with life and love. Sometimes I even get the impression they like to share stuff with me that they wouldn't share with their straight guy friends, maybe because they feel less risk of feeling unmanly or something. I don't know. They're just my friends and are just people like me or anybody else.
I hope this makes a little sense....sorry for rambling.
Posted by Coaster Punchman to This Redeemable Life at September 13, 2007 2:22 PM
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Coaster Punchman has left a new comment on your post "Please Place Your Trays In The Upright Position .....":
Sexuality is fascinating and certainly complex. I think there are a combination of factors such as genes and the thoughts/sights. However, until we discover what these thoughts/sights are that can cause homosexuality (and I don't think we will) there isn't going to be a "cure" for this "sickness." (ha ha.) Which is why we just need to keep working to get society to get the f*ck over themselves about it. Really, why anyone else would care what two consenting adults want to do with each other is beyond me and always has been.
Think about it. If we weren't all so hung up on this stuff, the men & women with "gay" partners as you describe wouldn't be in the mess they're in, because whatever their sexual issues are would have been resolved long before they ended up married with children. There are LOTS of people who sleep with both genders, and none of it would be a problem if our Judeo-Christian society hadn't decided to make it one.
A lot of us are even tired of the labels, because if we were all absolutely 100% true to ourselves they wouldn't be necessary.
Think about a guy who is totally meat & potatoes, who sees no need for salad & vegetables in his life. He might at one point end up in a situation where there is an absolutely gorgeous vegetarian dish in front of him, and while he would never have thought of choosing that to eat, he came across it and was suddenly just drawn to it. He might eat it, say "well that was actually pretty good!" And then he might resume his meat & potatoes consumption and not even think about that wonderful vegetarian dish until he runs across it again one day. So he's basically still a meat & potatoes guy, but nothing is carved in stone from preventing him to try & enjoy other dishes once in a while. Or who knows, he may even go through a period where he really likes those vegetables and so he decides to be vegetarian for a while. Of course, his true calling will probably resurface because he REALLY loved that meat & potatoes and he misses it a lot after being away from it.
I think for most people, that is what sexuality would be like if we weren't so f-ed up about it in our culture.
Posted by Coaster Punchman to This Redeemable Life at September 13, 2007 2:37 PM
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Coaster Punchman has left a new comment on your post "Onward ...":
Wow, I learn more with each post!
First, I'm very sorry for the trauma you experienced as a kid. From the sound of it you've had too much general trauma in your life, and I really wish you peace.
Second, I so heartily applaud you for having the courage to tackle all these issues from racism to sexuality to getting over childhood trauma. You are "one of the good ones" - and I don't mean black people, I mean MEN! Think of how many men go through sh*t and end up just f-ing up their lives in so many ways (drugs, crime, becoming complete abusive a-holes themselves etc.) The route you have chosen says so much about your character, and it is all good.
Third, not knowing you - and even if I did - your sexuality is 100% your own business and no one on earth should encourage you to be one thing or the other. You get to decide what you are and whom you love.
Finally, hereby as a self-proclaimed ambassador of the gay male community, I wish for you that you learn more about what it means to be a gay man in our culture rather than deciding ahead of time that it would just be too terrible to consider. I'm not AT ALL encouraging you to be gay; as I said, I want you to be exactly who you are and nothing else.
However, it sounds like you have certain fears and maybe a few misconceptions or, at the very least, extreme ideas about what our lives are like. Trust me, it's really not so awful! :)
To put this another way, although you acknowledge that being African American in the US has not always been easy, what would you think if one of your white friends said to you "being black would just be too awful for me. I don't think I could do it." Or how about this - if you could choose your race, would have chosen to be white because it would have been easier?
I don't mean to sound judgmental at all here - I'm just trying to present another perspective.
I will respect whatever your answer is, but can I tell you what would make me happiest to hear from you regarding that last question? This is it:
"Listen Mary, I know you think being black is some horrendous cross I've had to bear but you know what? I love my race and my culture and the richness of my people's history, tragic as it is. I wouldn't choose to be any color other than exactly what I am because I think it's beautiful!"
That's pretty much how I feel when people ask if I wouldn't rather be straight.
Sure, I'd be a lot happier if all the f-ing homophobes would go back into their caves & get off my back, but am I going to let these people interfere with my having a happy life? You bet your ass I am not!
I hope this has been some help, or at least mildly interesting if not amusing.
Posted by Coaster Punchman to This Redeemable Life at September 13, 2007 2:54 PM
This will be easier for me to comment if I ... erm ... use the comments section. Heh.
38 comments:
But of course I have to go back to the cafe' now...! I'll comment later tonight!
Wow Alan!
Maybe you should award Coaster Punchman an award!
He is right on!
I am SO glad you found Coaster Punchman. When I saw you commenting for the first time on his blog, I knew immediately that this acquaintance would be beneficial to you.
Oh my gosh, I feel all laid bare for the world to see now! Oh well, remember I am a cyberstalker! Looking forward to your comments to my comments.
CP
I've actually been excited since I set up this post and looking forward to commenting tonight. It may take a few comments, but let me start;
Re: September 13, 2007 2:01 PM;
The college is completely privately funded, so no one is guilty of federal laws there. And actually, it wasn't a school rule. That school had not had a black student in 20 years before I showed up. That's why I wanted to go--they were all so impressed with me. Talk about becoming an ambassador. I was honored to enroll.
The racial boundaries was given to me as a heads' up from the dorm supervisor. It was written nowhere (including the Bible) but highly and heavily suggested. The midwesterners have a way of going around the barn to say something exact. It went something like this, "We're real glad God sent you to us, Brother Alan. Now that you freshmen are allowed to start dating, we're hoping God will send you someone special to complete your life. Someone like yourself." Upon my further probes he made it quite plain that 'someone like myself' was supposed to be black. It was supported by several other teachers and students (many of whom were younger than me), and in later weeks it became evident that about half of the student body thought it'd be troublesome if I were to date outside my race. The dorm supervisor and his wife had even gone out of their way to introdiuce me to a black family in another town so I could start dating one of their daughters. And she was a cute little thing. But her religious beliefs was 45 degrees different than our school's. They would rather I dated outside the faith than outside the race. Those are the facts.
But also, they still tried to love me through all that ignorance. I feel the anger when I look back, but I finished my degree and stayed out there because I thought they were trying to accept me. I thought if I held my peace long enough, they would see the error of their racism and learn to let the walls down. I thought if I stayed, more black people would come and we'd all teach them lessons they hadn't learned in decades.
That's why I say stupid, naive little me.
More later ...
The term "Midwest" is unfortunately overbroad in the number of states it covers. I'm a Midwesterner, although more aptly an "Upper Midwesterner" (which would be Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, the Dakotas and the northern part of Illinois.) Missouri has absolutely nothing to do with where I'm from - we would call that more "the South" even if they were a neutral state in the Civil War (or they weren't a slave state I think... been a while since I took US History.)
I don't know what religion this college is part of but I'm sorry, they still sound like crackpots.
I'm not saying that every white person where I grew up would have been thrilled to date or consider marrying a black person, but society has to start somewhere, even if that "somewhere" is "you may think that inside your own head but you certainly may not SAY IT!" Even in my lilly white very Republican Chicago suburb where I went to high school in the early 1980s that would have been considered ridiculous. Sure, there may have been people here and there who would say things like that but there would have been just as many people to disagree.
I think we're around the same age and I can tell you with great certainty that where I went to college in rural Minnesota, anyone openly saying something like that would have been considered either a crackpot or a total backwards hick.
Still, I feel very bad that you had to have that horrible experience.
I may elicit some further commentary on this whole notion of "thinking it inside your head vs. saying it" - but as I said, we do have to start somewhere. If you're at least at a point where you realize people may be upset if you start talking about wanting your daughter to marry white, you're further along than someone who doesn't even see a problem with announcing that to the world.
Oh, make no mistake--they are indeed crackpottish and backward hickensian of tall order. I went to this college in 1992, but you could have sworn it was 1962. And before me, many of the students there thought it was the norm to call black people "colored".
In 1992.
You know, I just read that back to myself. I must be making all this up!
Nope, I'm not.
Re:
Posted by Coaster Punchman to This Redeemable Life at September 13, 2007 2:22 PM;
I think I'm probably the poster child for "totally ignorant upbringing or serious psychological issues about sex". Part of the reason I was a member of that religion was because it gave me a holy excuse not to have sex. But then when I did get engaged, and a date was set for the wedding, I was terrified of what was supposed to happen after the ceremony. The date loomed on me like an execution.
Re: Posted by Coaster Punchman to This Redeemable Life at September 13, 2007 2:37 PM;
Here I believe you've stated what I believe as well. Sexuality is fluid. Sexual urges exist biologically, and society plus culture determines what we do with it. Obviously, male plus female is necessary for the species to survive, but if that designation were hardwired into the genetic structure, this discourse wouldn't exist on this blog--or anywhere in the world.
Your perspective is invaluable here, Coast. Let me point out that it is a male perspective, though. But I want to hear from women. Grizz, Little Wing, S*--if you're on a first date and the guy meets your criteria for a second date, but he reveals that last year he had a sexual relationship with a man for six months, but now he's gotten that out of his system and he's ready to move on--would you keep dating him?
I do know that a lot of people live bisexually. Famous people and the not-so-much. They start straight and end up gay, or vice versa. I may have spoke about her already somewhere, but I work with a girl who once lived with another girl in college and they were lovers. Now, she has a child from an ex-husband, and is married to a new man. And if she openly told me this information, she surely told her new husband. He married her anyway. (Well, she is gorgeous. And society is more tolerant of lesbians than gay men. For whatever reason.)
You know, upon further thought, I think it might be a matter of security for the ladies. Men just kind of blunder into relationships, (and face it, we're dogs. We'd hump a flat tire), but in a general sense, women like to know that they are going to be secure. Maybe knowing that their man was gay before he met her might make her feel insecure about her ability to "please" him and keep him?
I also would very much like to hear from women on this. My scenario about the meat & potatoes vs. vegetables is indeed based on the idea of a perfect world where none of this matters as much as it does today. However, I do think that if we were further along on this issue as a society, women wouldn't have to worry as much about dating or marrying a man who has had relationships with other men, because he would be marrying her for the right reasons - i.e. because he loved her and he wanted her and he wanted to marry her! Instead of how things are today with some people .... meaning that they get married because they think they are supposed to ... and everyone knows how that can end up. That being said, I would totally understand a woman being skittish about making a lifetime legal commitment to a "bisexual." But maybe the more open & honest & unafraid he is, the less reason she would have to worry.
Back when I used to feel like more of an activist I used to lecture people about how anti-gay-male homophobia is so harmful to women for the reasons you cite. It's this driving people into the closet that causes gay men to marry women and then ultimately break their hearts and disrupt their lives. So straight women, I argued, have a definite interest in encouraging a society where gay men (and women) can be open & unafraid. That way they won't unknowingly marry one and get themselves into trouble!
Sorry for rambling.... you did ask to hear from your women readers and I'm still going on & on.... I hope there's enough room in the blogworld for all of this! :)
Oh, and I couldn't resist the urge to comment on this: "You know, I just read that back to myself. I must be making all this up!" Isn't that wild how that happens? You go through something horrible & traumatic (especially when you're young) and then years after you're out of that situation, you recount it as though it was just a normal part of your life and everyone else is like "dude, that is totally f-ed up!" Always an eye opener.
Here's a woman's perspective:
I once dated a bi guy for a short spell. He didn't tell me upfront (obviously) but I didn't run when he told me.
That said, I would NEVER do it again. There is no way someone who is bi can consistently block their urges. Even if a woman may satisfy him at that moment, he's still going to have an urge to be satisfied in a way that only a man can satisfy him. The situation could only end badly.
On the otherhand, at least this guy was honest with me. Men who are on the "down low" absolutlely disgust me as well. People need to be completely honest with themselves and with their partners.
Thank you, S*. I feel sure that you're not alone with that.
And here's what I get from that--When a woman is with a completely hetero guy, they still run the risk that just one girl will not satisfy him, or that his last girlfriend put it on him so good that you'll never do the trick. But that's a normal risk. It doesn't seem like it's worth it to you, S*, to take the additional risk of adding homosexuality into the mix? Correct me if I've gotten that wrong ...
And for those who do not know, or have never heard an episode of "The Wendy Williams Experience," lol, a "down-low" man is a bisexual who has relationships with women and completely hides his other sexuality. He hides it, but is actively engaged in it.
I see your point, CP. So that if closeting were not necessary, then there'd be no "down-low" men.
But we return to the experience of S*. Even when she knew, she wasn't secure about him. "Even if a woman may satisfy him at that moment, he's still going to have an urge to be satisfied in a way that only a man can satisfy him."
Please, more! This is beyond all my expectations. Thank you so much for being candid!
I agree with S* ....Too my knowledge I have never dated a bi, but I just know I could not compete with another man. A woman, yes, if that were my choice, but I don't have the right parts to compete with a man.
So no, I would not go into a relationship with a bi man, knowing he was bi.
Also, you are right on about men who marry and have children and try to live a straight life.
I have a friend, Dan, who is openly gay.
His partner, Rob, was married and the father of two.
I sat up with Dan all night trying to comfort him
(as a good friend) when Rob went back to his wife.
I don't know who I felt the worst for, Dan or Rob or the kids or the wife.
Rob stayed away one night and came back to Dan, and wanted to be with Dan.
I know, a lot of drama here but.....
I attended their garden wedding, performed by a lesbian minister.
They have been together now for five years and are very happy, the kids seem to have adjusted and the wife is remarried.
Men need to be honest with themselves before they can be honest with a woman.
If a man told me on the first date that he was bi, I probably would not have a second date with him.
First of all, I don't know if that's the sort of thing you share on the first date. Especially if you think there is potential for a second date.
Seondly, I might be able to get past a guy telling me that he has been with men in the past if I have spent some time getting to know him and his character.
Getting to know a guy before he drops the bomb of bisexuality on me affords me the opportunity to gather enough information to determine if this guy and this relationship is worth the risk.
Telling me that kind of information on the first date pretty much ensures that the poor guy will have no chance whatsover. At least not with me.
I think this goes back to that security issue you were talking about.
Little Wing, that's the challenge every man faces, straight, gay, or bi. That's the challenge everyone faces.
That's why there are therapists. :D
It's incredibly, INCREDIBLY hard to be honest with yourself. I'm about to be 43, and I have probably spent 6 of those years being honest with myself. I'm counting from birth until the molestation, and then these past months in therapy.
That's about it. Everything else has been me dreaming, speculating, hiding, prentending.
And I betcha I'm not the only one.
But it is my professional opinion that bloggers are closer to being honest with themselves than most.
Thank you guys so, so much.
Grizz, the indicator that the issue is about security for you is because you used the word "risk" in determining if a relationship with this guy is worth it.
It's all a risk, isn't it? :) But bisexuality kicks it up a notch.
I would hope a guy told me he was bi BEFORE he asked me out, it might be that we could be very good friends without benefits.
It could eliminate a lot of drama and anger upon finding out. I mean, what if I am feeling emotional pulls, or what if he is, then out of the blue he says "oh by the way, I am bi"? I could not care less who is bi or gay or lesbian. Until it comes to me dating them. I say if you haven't learned to be honest with yourself, you need to work on you, and forget about an intimate relationship that involves sex, until you KNOW who you are and can be honest about it.
Let's drop the term "bisexual" for now because that indicates that even after he's dating a woman, he still wants some manflesh too.
But let's say once he's starting dating you, he now knows that women are his drug of choice.
Is it the same? Is every concern and reluctance still there? Is it harder to believe that a man who has been with another man or men will be faithful to you, as oppsed to a man who has been with other women?
Because you know, there are strap-ons if he ever gets that certain hankering ...
You are suggesting that I could fill his need for manflesh and I just find that real hard to believe.
I want a man who prefers woman flesh. That's just how I am wired.
How can we drop the term bisexual, when the term itself is self explaining.
Of course he still wants some man flesh!
How can he suddenly know that women are his drug of choice!
Are you expecting me to believe someone who has always been bi can just rewire their brain and become straight??????
I am not buying that.
I respect that LW. Truly, I've got nothing to submit as proof that these hypotheses of mine are possible. But I have nothing to discount them either. I definitely, personally, know a woman who was a lesbian and is now a straight mother and a wife. I also know that porn stars alternate their sexuality on the regular. Mostly it's the women (several interviews with Jenna Jameson blew my socks off), but I am aware of at least two males who started in gay porn and now do straight porn. As far as their ability to perform with females--one is legendary. He has his own website and everything. The other seemed to have no trouble, lol. Yup, I watched. I didn't see their gay porn, however. Maybe they were never any good at it ...
Porn might not be the best barometer, but as far as the ability to have sex goes, I'm convinced that it's possible. Multiple times.
I think it's the commitment that you want from the guy. Committed to stay with you sexually, and to desire you only. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Alan, maybe there is more money to be made in straight porn. Again, if the porn stars were bi, of course they could switch.
How would we know they weren't still bi-active.
I personally know two lesbian sisters who were both married with children and now they are both in relationships with women and very happy. One of them works for the F.B.I.
I don't expect any man to desire me only, I just expect him to not act on it.
I'm with LW (on her various points).
First off...let's leave porn out of it. A man getting it up for money doesn't make him straight (or bi or homosexual).
Second, we can't have this conversation without the term "bisexual". I don't think that sexual labels are like clothes, you don't take them off and put them back on. Haven't gays been arguing forever that they are born that way, wired that way? To say someone is a "former lesbian" undermines this. That said, if a man is bi, he's always going to be bi and and will always have the urge - biologically, sexually and mentally - to be with a man, regardless of whether morally he is a faithful type of person. That is why I would NEVER EVER date a bi guy (again).
My not wanting to be with a bi guy has nothing to do with assuming additional "risk". It has to do with the fact that I want a man who wants a woman and only a woman.
Oh - and as far as a guy telling on a first date that he is bi - sure it's unlikely, but I think it's deceptive not to. In any case, a man needs to divulge this info before the relationship becomes intimate.
Even if there is a biological code in an individual to be hetero or homosexual, humans find a way to do what we want to do. We have a bio-code that tells us that we HAVE to eat, yet we starve ourselves if we want to, and some extreme cases, die. We have a bio-code that prevents us from the ability to fly, yet we build planes and fly anyway.
My assertion is that society tells people what to do with their sexuality, not biology. Women are allowed by society to be more expressive in their attractions or admiration for other women than men are, but the way you and LW express yourselves here are a microcosm of how women's expectations will reinforce the way men behave in society as a whole. We want to be in sexual relationship with you guys, so we're not going to tell you, or ever act upon, the attraction or admiration we might have for another guy. You don't find it acceptable.
I have no argument with that. It is what it is.
Alan we are asking you to be HONEST with us if you are attracted to another man!
Fuck society!
You are being all analytical with it, and we are just trying to tell you how we feel about bi men!
We want a man who wants a woman and ONLY a woman, it really ISN'T about additional risks, it is just how our brains are wired and society did NOT wire us that way!!!!!!
We as women, do our own thinking, thank you very much!
I'm with LW again.
You are overanalyzing and condemning.
A woman's desire to only be with straight men is not a condemnation of bi men. It's simply the way they are wired...in the same way a gay man is attracted to a gay man and not a lesbian.
If sexuality is determined by society, then why aren't there more gay men (who assert that they hate being gay) able to "convert" themselves successfully for the long term?
You say: "We want to be in sexual relationship with you guys, so we're not going to tell you, or ever act upon, the attraction or admiration we might have for another guy. You don't find it acceptable." You can only speak for yourself. Not every bi person is a closeted bi person. Not every woman is adverse to being with a bi man. It's about being HONEST with what you want and being HONEST with the person that you are engaging with.
A few points here:
- gay porn pays way more than straight porn. I don't know why, but it does. Therefore many straight guy porn actors switch to gay porn for the $$
- many gay people feel born that way (I do.) I used to argue that you can't judge someone by how they are born, and I still feel that way. But I don't hate being being gay. I only hate some peoples' reaction to it.
- there are many gay people (a lot of them women, seemingly) who say they don't necessarily feel that they were "born" that way but that's what they feel drawn to now. these people were the first ones to start arguing against the gay community using the whole "we were born that way!" argument - because that leaves them out of the equation. Freedom to live your life the way you want to (without harming anyone else) is a basic American value and people should not be penalized for that. People who choose to have same-sex spouses should expect no less from our culture & government than people who choose opposite-sex partners. So while we can still argue about how we were born, the issue now goes much deeper and is about basic human dignity and freedom.
Honestly, LW, I didn't get the sense that you were asking me anything specifically. I guess I should have gotten the inference since this is my blog.
I am sorry for assuming the thoughts of a woman, but don't forget--it is kind of my profession. Whatever clients I have, it's my job to help them clarify their thought processes, and in order to do that, I have to make assumptions. But please notice, I did ask S* to correct me if I were wrong. So I get it that you feel I'm wrong about the whole 'risk assessment' aspect of dating "bi" men. I accept your viewpoint. Do notice for yourselves that the label "bi" seems to mean the same to you as "gay". If a man was ever with another man, he is out of the running of sex partner with you. Correct me there if I'm wrong on that.
But you ladies seem frustrated because I'm being analytical. Sorry for that too. Yes, I chose to be analytical. That's a safe distance for dealing with this on a personal level, and I chose safety over full disclosure.
I seriously didn't get a sense that I was condemning anyone, S*. Let me know where I did that I will account for it with an additional apology.
Ultimately, are you guys interviewing me to be a possible partner? If I write the correct responses here, will you and I hook up? Because that wasn't my purpose and I offer another apology if I gave that impression.
But since you've stuck it out with me this long and you've invested some emotion into this issue, I'll tell you what I've figured out.
I'm straight. Sexually, I want to be with women. And I still believe what I believe about sexuality. Fluid. And for the record, I have never been with a man.
I think those are all the facts that are necessary (along with every single word I've written in this and my old blog, lol) to be known about me.
Well, that, and all the facts that yet to come. :-)
Coaster Punchman, no argument from me, I agree with you.
Alan I actually did mean for my comments to be for bi men in general.
I hope the idea of us interviewing you as a pontential partner was a joke, lol, the way I remember it, YOU were the one looking for answers from US!
Wow, I go away for a couple of days and this turns into quite the discussion.
I'm leaning toward Alan on the influence of society on sexuality. Now, I believe there is something to be said for biology. I think biology may very well determine in general our tendencies, preferences, whatever you want to call it. But I think society strongly influences how those tendencies and preferences are exercised.
Of course I have no scientific data to back this theory up whatsover but that won't stop me from commenting. I'm just that opinionated. :)
I will be honest and say that if society didn't look negatively on men sleeping with other men, I might not care one way or the other whether my partner was bi or completely straight. As it is, I really don't want to be left for another man. I don't want to be left for another woman either but there's an additional stigma associated with infidelity when there is a man involved.
I know. It's not the most PC viewpoint on the planet and I'm not proud of it but it is honest. And I believe you asked us for honesty.
Lol!
LW, when you said "Alan we are asking you to be HONEST with us if you are attracted to another man!" I took that to mean you were actually asking me.
I figured that would be important to you to know if we were dating, and you could eliminate me as a potential. So I wasn't so much joking, as I was sussing out why you would be asking me instead of letting me keep the discussion analytical.
Because you ladies had already answered the questions that I asked for, and I had already thanked you. :-)
Grizz, I'm not any more judgmental of you than I was of S* and LW. We feel how we feel. I don't believe any of you would go out of your way to hurt this population.
LW & S* doesn't agree, but human nature tells me that a lot of what motivates our decisions is fueled by the search for security. If entering into a questionable relationship threatens your security, why would I force you to take the chance? I'm all about safety! I'm the Master of Safe. It ain't sexy, or adventurous, or whatever, but it makes me feel ... heh ... safe.
I'd trade "safe" over "risk" any second of any minute of any hour of any day.
Well Alan, Master Of Safe, feel free to go read my last blog post and see what risk I am now willing to make. (almost ready)????
Talk about letting yourself be vulnerable!!!!
Sorry about confusing you on the "Alan we are asking you to be HONEST with us if you are attracted to another man!"....actually it would have been very important if we were dating!!!!.....LOL!
I have enjoyed the debate we had going here, all of the input was awesome!
100% agree Little Wing! It was phenomenal!
Now let's go see what else is happening out in the blogosphere ...
Wait, we can't stop now!
Re: Condemning....What I was trying to say was that you seem to make it seem like a bad thing that a straight woman doesn't want a bi guy. Perhaps it was just your tone. It was a tad defensive.
Also, bi doesn't = gay to me, as you suggested. Bi = gay + straight. A person can't deny either part, in my opinion.
Finally, I believe in very traditional gender/sex roles. The thought of taking comfort in a man who takes comfort in another man really isn't right for me. That's not to say that gay or bi men are not masculine...it's to say that I want a man who wants soft n curvy n feminine. In essence, I want a man who wants me. You know what I mean?
OK, now we can end it. ;)
Defensive? Hmm. I'll have to look into that. :-)
Yes, S* I know what you mean. All my heroes are that kind of man. Well, except Coaster Punchman.
"Bi" might not = "gay" for you, but the straight part of bi isn't enough to change your view. (There's a song verse in their somewhere...) So in that sense, I considered that both bi and gay are the same for you.
Quite a bit ago, I heard a documentary at WBAI here in NY (99.5 FM) about some Latin countries (which I believe included Spain and Italy) and their culture of same-sex relations. It was said that it wasn't unusual for the characteristic of a truly masculine man was him having sex with a man as well as a woman. Something about the more sex partners he could claim, the higher his status was as a "real man". I remembered that report, mainly because I thought it was telling how different another culture's values can be. But I couldn't tell you who reported it. For all I know it was made up. Only certain Latins know for sure. (But then again, there is ancient Greek culture. Bisexuality was the absolute norm.)
But add to that the fact of prison culture. It's heavily downplayed but male inmates ocassionally have relations with one another. (Just ask the producers of HBO's "Oz")Sometimes it's rape, sometimes it's survival, but sometimes it's human need and consented between the two. And then, of course, the men who went in straight come out ready to knife anyone who says they aren't still straight.
So you'll have to cross anyone who's done time in a jail off your list too, because like the lottery--"Hey! You never know." ;-)
lol!
Being gay or bi involves emotions. Not just sex. Your examples involve sex only.
I maintain bi doesn't equal gay. It means both. And it means not for me. No further implications than that a bi man is not what I want.
I agree totally with S* that bi does NOT equal gay.
A gay man would not even ask a woman for a date, would he?
One of my best friends is gay and he is one of the few guys I know who I know where I stand with, he likes me just because I am me. I have been friends with him since high school, one of my favorite people to go out with, he's my built in body guard!
Now a bi guy is in a whole different catagory.
Thanks but no thanks.
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